 This is the second hour, December the 9th, afternoon lecture.
 
 Now, you may have found some of the data I was giving you perhaps, at
 this time, a little bit inapplicable, or you may have found it confusing, or
 you may have found it to your level of agreement, at this time, just a little
 bit outside of use. All I was trying to do was to impress upon you that: 
 
 One, something is going on at all times with the preclear which is a 
 push-pull of confusion; and that your best interest is not to fight the 
 battle of this push-pull of confusion directly, because that is a snare and a
 delusion. And although It's very convincing, you don't get very far by
 addressing it. 
 
 Now, we had our highest - the high tide of the confederacy - with 
 uh.. Technique 88, on processing real facsimiles. Me know more about that 
 now, but processing locks, secondaries, engrams, flows, all of that sort of
 thing, done as itself, no. Not.. you.. you can get there by doing it that way
 but uh.. you're fighting a game which has got a win-lose in it. You'll just
 move over into the area of creative processing and approximate these flows 
 and things. Now, you have to know about flows and you have to know about 
 energy behavior, you have to know about all these other things, and you know
 about all these other things, do creative processing. You'd approximate 'em,
 do approximations. You have to know the beast in order to knock the beast 
 flat. 
 
 One of the things you have to know is you don't.. you.. you don't, by
 the way, after you've studied animals... Let's.. let's say you've studied 
 lions exhaustively. You know the habitats and uh.. hobitats and happitats of
 a lion. You know all these things, and you don't then go and be a lion. No,
 you would learn these things to either shoot him with a camera or to shoot 
 him with a gun, or to make sure that uh.. he didn't uh.. propagate quite as
 fast or that he propagated faster or that you could keep him this way and 
 that. You wouldn't be a lion. 
 
 Well, just look at this universe along that line. Uh.. you study it, 
 and then don't go be a.. a MEST universe. Uh.. let's look at it as though we
 were small game hunting; it's actually a very small game. It looks big, but
 uh.. any time you'll pull the bottom drawer out and found no mystery in it,
 why, you can kind of dust your hands of the whole deal. It's a wonderful 
 piece of confusion. MEST is chaos; it's chaos;,it's chaos with two vectors.
 It's not complete chaos; it's just chaos with two vectors. And one of 'em is
 have and the other is have not. 
 
 Now, let's look now, at flows, what we were going to talk about 
 originally. Here is this big sprawling confusion, and the win-lose, and your
 preclear's been rattled all over the time track and he's still rattled. And
 your poor psycho, my God, he.. he has.. he has even lost present time to such
 a degree that he thinks he's in some other time, and he's very upset. But 
 uh.. he's just upset because of these factors. 
 
 Now, let's look at flows. Let's take the two terminals of an electric
 motor, and we'll find these two electrodes are going alternately plus and 
 minus, or in the case of a DC motor, you're just getting a continuous 
 one-directional flow. 
 
 All right. Here we have, though, a current flow which depends upon a 
 plus terminal and a minus terminal, and they must be opposite. And if they 
 are opposite and can be held apart, we get action, we get energy flowing. If
 they are the same, they slightly tend to repel each other. So therefore, it
 tells you that any cohesive piece of MEST that is staying together well, has
 
 -117- 

 in it minuses and pluses. It's a great big ball of minus and plus stuff, all
 thrown together. Otherwise, it wouldn't stay together. 
 
Now, you can take a.. a magnet over here and uh.. you.. the plus 
 poles of the magnet, if put in juxtaposition near each other, would uh.. 
 repel each other. But if you turn that magnet over and you get the plus over
 here and the minus over here, those two things come together. They attract 
 each other. So, we're going to get a piece of matter, then, which is sticking
 together well, such as tar: it contains a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses,
 and they are intermingled.
 
Now, pluses and minuses intermingle to the degree that you have
 cohesiveness. And cohesiveness is established by the uh.. balances of the 
 pluses and minuses, and this makes what's called density. And of course, 
 space must have collapsed between the terminals to bring a plus and minus 
 together in a solid piece of matter. There couldn't be any space between 
 these terminals. 
 
Let's take two electric motor terminals and they're sitting up here,
 one's plus and one's minus. If we take the space out from between the two of
 'em, they come together, spat! That's right, they'll come right straight 
 together. Even the juice isn't going through them, the residual current as 
 such, but they'll pull each other together. And there they'll be without any
 space between them. 
 
Now, let's get this analogy. When your preclear is no longer able to
 maintain space, the plus-minus terminals come together on him and we find the
 preclear beginning to approximate matter. Everything is solid, the space 
 around him feels sort of solid, he gets sort of solid. All of this proceeds 
 from this principle of matter in the making. A preclear is in the best shape
 who can hold a negative facsimile and a positive facsimile beautifully and 
 cleanly apart. He can hold 'em apart with great ease.
 
He starts to be unable to locate these facsimiles or establish them 
 in space anymore; when this capability leaves him, he gets lost. And the 
 penalty of getting lost about this, in terms of energy, is to have the 
 plus-minus terminals and facsimiles in one's field start collapsing. And the
 final end of this is to become a cohesion of matter, unable to locate 
 anything in time and space. Got that? 
 
It's loss of space, then, which makes matter. Loss of interval 
 between the plus and minus particles. And as that interval decreases and 
 decreases and decreases, the object is more and more solid. 
 
Now, it tells you that there would be types of matter which would be
 made up mainly of pluses. It could have a predominance of plus, or a 
 predominance of minus. And what happens to this matter? It doesn't stay
 together; it's very pervasive. Hydrogen is one of them. You let some hydrogen
 loose in a room, uh.. the stuff is not cohesive, it's quite expansive; and 
 it's trying to flow around all over the place. You let some hydrogen loose in
 space and it will swell up that space. 
 
Now, uh.. that's fascinating. It's a matter of pressures involved
 here in space, and that sort of thing. But uh.. it's not in nice balance, but
 it is in nice enough balance to be matter. 
 
All right. Let's take, then, this principle of the plus and the minus
 particle collapsing, and we find out that your preclear becomes solid to the
 direct ratio that he is unable to maintain the distance amongst his 
 facsimiles, memories and MEST objects. When he's unable to do this, he begins
 
 -118- 

 to become matter. And he begins to become matter and act like matter, that is
 just to the ratio that he goes down the tone scale. 
 
So, we want to see somebody go down the tone scale, just start taking
 space away from their terminals. Just take the space out, just take the space
 out, and keep taking the space out; and the next thing you know, this guy's
 getting solider and solider and solider. And he starts to obey the laws of 
 matter Itself. 
 
Now, you could say that matter could be complexly composed in this 
 fashion: matter which is composed of a lot of pluses is trying not to be 
 itself; matter composed of a lot of minuses is still trying not to be itself.
 It doesn't have a cohesion, it has an ex.. uh.. an expansive tendency or 
 disassociative tendency. So that isn't a stable commodity. And matter which
 is composed of pluses and minuses with great balance and evenness and the 
 space is missing in between those terminals becomes very, very solid. And if
 you try to bring too much plus-minus terminal together and take too much 
 space out from between the two, the thing will go kaboom! As in the case of
 plutonium. 
 
Now, this is all very elementary and it isn't anything that you 
 should puzzle yourself about, and I would actually recommend that you get a
 couple of magnets and uh.. just uh.. have one.. have their ends marked very
 plainly -- bar magnets rather than a horseshoe magnet - and just mark the ends
 of those magnets very very plainly; the plus ends plainly and the minus ends
 plainly. And you'll see that if you have the plus opposite the minus, that is
 to say as the magnets are lined up, that they, of course, will snap together.
 And so you can have too much cohesiveness. 
 
Now, let's put those apart two feet, one from the other, and as 
 they.. do you leave 'em alone, nothing happens. But let's remove a little 
 space between 'em, and have 'em one foot apart, and you notice that they.. 
 one.. one'll get sort of edgy, just sort of skiddy. 
 
Now, let's take another six inches of space from between 'em and 
 they'll do what? They'll go clank!
 
Now, what is known as a - quote "psychotic break" unquote - is this
 clank. Some person disorients a human being one time too many; and it's just
 that, just disorientation. Tells him he's here when he's there, and fouls him
 up one way or the other, and pulls the space out. Or tells him he can't stay
 there anymore, or tells him that he can't have that space, or tells him that
 he can't have that matter, which also contains space. He loses something, in
 other words; but what he loses, most importantly, is space. 
 
And so he loses this space and one day he feels, with several 
 facsimiles, a clank. That's good, he feels this clank, see, and he doesn't 
 feel good at all. 
 
Now, what do you do.. what do you do to get this guy in good repair?
 Well, you just give him some space. That's simple. Just give him some space.
 Of course, the.. the.. the regular treatment is to put him in a cell or 
 something, you know; take his space away from h1m. Just give him some space,
 make sure he's got space, lots of space. And he'll.. he'll.. he'll snap out
 of things most remarkably. I tell you, that ast of the mad hatters that.. 
 that go out in the deserts as hermits and uh.. and so on, they get remarkably
 sane and calm when they're put down in a desert fastness, because they've got
 a lot of space! That's quite important to 'em. They've got.. it.. it just 
 goes out in all directions, and they're very happy about this. 
 
 -119- 

Did you ever get out on a plain and suddenly take a deep sigh of 
 relief, to be outside in the country where you get this tremendous expanse in
 all directions, so forth. You all of a sudden feel the pressure off of you.
 In other words, your concept of how much space you have to move around in is
 increased, so therefore you automatically, more or less without thinking 
 about it, increase the space amongst your own facsimiles. Now, as you walk 
 through crowds, go on to subways, rush up Time Square, rush down here, down
 Broad Street, and get on to streetcars, in and out of taxicabs, dadump, 
 babump, bangs, crash, zing, uh.. and so on, you keep getting the idea that 
 you don't have very much space. Well, this speeds you up; it feeds you more
 juice. 
 
 I've seen guys stand on the corner and just shake. Uh.. it gives 'em
 lots of juice. And that's why these cities appear to be fast, but you'll find
 the truth of the matter is, there isn't a heck of a lot accomplished in them.
 ' The reason why is their level of reason is lower. 
 
A country is sane as long as it has, unfortunately, a farming belt.
 It's got a big farming belt to draw people from for the cities. When these 
 kids are in there for a few years and they get in there and pitch in the 
 advertising agencies and in the newspaper offices and so forth, and they feed
 new blood to the city. And then they're used up and ashcanned, and you can 
 get a new set of kids. 
 
It isn't that there's anything good about a farming belt - imagine
 farming - but uh.. there's uh.. more space in it. You'll get people will talk
 slower or faster, as the case may be. They're regulated. 
 
God help you, you're.. most people in cities here have a sort of an
 hypnotic look, as you go down the street; they're really knocked in. Well, 
 that isn't the case on a wider front. 
 
All right. Now, let's look at that plus-minus factor and just base a
 process on it. Now, be.. be.. be sure you get this; don't pass this by and 
 remember that I said that people were skiddeded from one body to another 
 body. That's not important, knowing that one, but it is important knowing 
 this one: 
 
That this factor of reduced space results in aberrated behavior, and
 it is a curve of space reduction that first produces reason: at about 22 down
 to about 10 or 12, you're getting reason; that is to say, a fellow thinks 
 consecutively on problems. And it then declines from there... Reason, by the
 way, is not an aesthetic or otherwise, but it's just mental action, let's 
 say, on any wave length. Uh.. and it declines from that 12 or up there, it 
 gradually goes on down to 4 and then it spans in quick. 
 
From 4 down gives us another example of Man's intolerance.. for well,
 he's.. he's just living in this little, tiny, narrow band and he can only 
 survive in this little band. Well, he can only survive in a small band on the
 tone scale, too. It's a wonder that he's here at all. 
 
Now, we take.. take from 4.0, he's really on his way. Why? By golly,
 in that band, he is depending upon otherwise originated flows. He's depending
 upon flows which originate elsewhere. He cannot support a body without
 feeding it. 
 
Do you know that if I were to tell this to an audience in some other
 part of the universe that I would have mouths open in the audience? That a 
 being could actually exist at a low point on the tone scale so low, that in
 order to have any kind of a body, he would have to feed it from sources other
 
 -120- 

 than himself. They would just sit there and just gawk, and they wouldn't 
 believe it. That would be the.. the horrible point. 
 
You have automobiles out here which don't run unless you put gasoline
 in their tanks. In other words, this society is built on MEST-universe-pour-
 into. There isn't much of this pour-the-MEST-out; it's all the MEST-universe-
 pour-in. 
 
Well, now, what do you do for homo sapiens, then? We find he's
 getting less and less space between those terminals, less and less space, 
 less and less space, and it's pretty easy to upset him. Something can come 
 along all of a sudden and jerk a little more space out between the plus-minus
 terminals and those terminals do a creak, and some of his facsimiles 
 collapse. A little bit of loss - you wouldn't think very often the loss was
 at all important - will cause him to really take an awful dive on the tone 
 scale. 
 
Now, here's the other strange phenomenon. People become saner by 
 jerks; they become saner by little jumps. They don't become sane by a smooth
 traveling-upward climb. It's jump, jump, jump, jump. And you can process 
 somebody for just hours and hours and hours and hours, and you say, "I'm 
 getting nowhere. I'm just getting nowhere with this case." And then all of a
 sudden, the guy will go home and he'll come back to see you the next morning
 and he's very happy. And you say, "What happened?" Well, if you don't ask him
 what happened, you won't find out, because he.. he.. although he might tell
 you (he'd be that interested), he'd say, "You know, I was sitting at the 
 supper table, and all of a sudden, I just kind of felt the lights turn up 
 brighter." 
 
Then you say, "Well, what.. what'd you think of?" Or anything like 
 that. Don't bother to ask him; it doesn't matter a damn what he thought of.
 What actually happened was, is his positive-negative terminal space on some
 of the facsimiles that're bothering him suddenly widened. And that little 
 little jump like that was the actual jump which he felt. It's a sudden jump.
 He will all of a sudden find himself looking at a work of art. 
 
And by the way, art is wonderful. It will fish people out of the 
 slough of despond faster than anything I know, if they're permitted to choose
 their own art. You can't go around and play Wagner and say, "Well, nobody's
 sane in the institution today; I mean, let's uh.. so let's play uh.. let's 
 play some Prokofiev. Uh.. oh, they've all gone nuts. Well, that doesn't 
 work." Well, I was talking about art. 
 
Although as one fellow I knew oh.. oh, he'd just be feeling horrible,
 and he always went home and did the same thing: he put on a record of Caruso.
 And it was an old, beaten up, knocked apart record of Caruso, and every once
 in a while he'd get terribly drunk and he'd hock it. And then he'd 
 practically go mad till he got this record back again. He'd do anything to 
 get that record back. And he.. he played it on a wind-up phonograph, and his
 life was a contest between trying to endure it and getting filled up again 
 with Caruso. And he'd put Caruso on the platter uh.. he'd put on the record
 and listen to Caruso. It wasn't any particularly good Caruso; it was old, 
 scratchy, made at the end of Caruso's career, as Pagliacci, I think, 
 something like that, or whatever Caruso sings. 
 
Now, he'd listen to that thing and oh.. up he'd come. What would it
 do? This big, ex.. you know, Caruso really could fill a lot of space. It's 
 too doggoned bad we didn't have in his day real sound recording, because his
 loss was actually a great loss. You know, there isn't anybody fills up space
 with sound the way Caruso did. Too, in the early days of Paul Robeson. Paul
 
 -121- 

 Robeson singing bass could knock out the back rafters. He could just start 
 hitting one of those low notes and pour in the volume, and all of a sudden he
 keeps pouring the volume in, and you say, "Lookee here, this roof is coming
 in any minute." He's to a large degree lost that today. He's singing 
 baritone, and so on. I guess he bought too many pamphlets or something. 
 
But uh.. uh.. when.. when it comes to these jumps, you see, they can
 almost come from any source. Now, I.. I could tell you some very touching and
 remarkable stories concerning the effect of aesthetics on individuals. It 
 doesn't take much to throw them; it really doesn't take much to put them back
 together again. And if you know that you've got a little principle working 
 there, which is just more space, what made his space constrict on him? I 
 mean, why.. why did he begin to feel he had it? 
 
Now, what does he need at this moment to feel he'll have more space?
 You establish that and he'll do one of these little jumps. Now, maybe he did
 something to somebody and he still has that facsimile sitting there, and so
 on, and it constricts him because he's backed up and he isn't occupying all
 of his own body. And that is an awfully important one. You'll find out the 
 guy who can't get out of his head isn't in his body. He doesn't think he is.
 He's already backed out of his body. He owned it once, but he's backed out of
 it. He'll tell you almost anything to try to convince you that he never was
 in 1t, or something of the sort. But the fact of the matter is, he isn't in
 it, to any great degree at all. He's dispersed. 
 
He'll be as far back as his ears. He'll.. he'll just bare.. barely be
 in the back of it, you know, just nyah, and very diffused. The whole front of
 the body, somebody else, something else owns, and he can't move into it. Now,
 the way out is through. He has to own every single scrap of that body and be
 willing to use every single piece of that body before he can cleanly step out
 of it. 
 
But this is a question of space. He isn't occupying the space of the
 body. He's backed up in space too much. This means, then, that his facsimiles
 will be hard packed on to him. He'll be thick. He'll be thicker than he 
 should be, in terms of electronics and ridges around. What about these guys
 and these ridges? They just haven't got enough space amongst the ridges. How
 can you put it in there? Well, you can put it in there in 40,000 different 
 ways, in creative processing. I mean, this is.. it's so easy.
 
But just remember that, that the trouble with him is energy and the
 trouble with the energy is it's lost the space between its terminals, and the
 remedy is to give him space. And the second he starts to get wider and wider
 things of space, and handle things in space, the better and better he'll feel
 and the more and more expansive he feels and the freer he is to act. 
 
All right. When he gets down to a certain level on the tone scale, he
 begins to be troubled by flows. He begins to get so solid as matter that he
 begins to be troubled by flows. Now, let's.. let's uh.. long build-up here to
 this data about ARC; feel you need this. 
 
Uh.. flows are just flows, and when a differentiation, when the 
 ability to differentiate is as low as 4.0 on the tone scale, one flow can 
 very easily be mistaken for another flow. At 2.0 and at 1.5, the person 
 thinks any flow is at his band level. He thinks anything that's said to him
 when he's at 2.0, really he.. he seldom differentiates. 
 
You come along and you say, "How are you this morning?" And he's
 liable to glare at you. Why, he knows very well what your emotion was when
 you said that. He can only put on you and feel back the emotion of 
 
 -122- 

 antagonism, you see? So any flow that comes in is a flow of antagonism. It 
 might be the sweetest flow in the world, it might be the pleasantest flow, or
 it might be meaner than hell or it might be griefy or it might be anything; 
 he can't differentiate. He's lost that power to differentiate and as a net 
 result he thinks everybody's being antagonistic toward him. 
 
Or he's angry and he's.. he's.. responds to that anger; he goes
 around looking for everybody to be angry or looking for people to be afraid,
 and he'll vary between those two things. He hopes they'll be afraid, but he's
 scared they'll be angry. The most horrible thing you can do to a 1.5 is
 really get mad at 'em. Oh, because that confirms the reality of what he's 
 been reading off of you all the time. 
 
Well, he can't differentiate too well in terms of flows. When he gets
 really bad off, by the way, he will mistake.. when he gets volume of energy 
 packed around him he can actually go to the point of mistaking sight and 
 sound and crossing up on the perceptic band. Yeah, that's.. that's really 
 weird. If you suddenly hear somebody hearing radio programs, you know where 
 they are on the tone scale and at what volume. They've got a confusion on 
 wave length. And when a person is so bad off and the energy is so thick
 around him that he can get confusion on wave length, he's pretty bad. 
 
You go around the Veterans Hospitals, every once in a while a guy is
 suffering so badly from shock and he's got ridges around him packed so solid
 that he will be seeing what he ought to be hearing and hearing what he ought
 to be seeing. That's quite confusing, but all he's done there is he's unable
 to differentiate, he's too low on the cycle of action, on ALL cycles of
 action, in.. on differentiation; he is low on it to the point where he can't
 tell the difference between wave lengths. 
 
Now, he has a communication difficulty, then, by being unable to 
 select out and perceive by various points on the wave length scale, as you 
 saw yesterday. Now, what else gets confused there? Well, he really doesn't 
 know too well what kind of a flow it is and what that flow is saying when he
 feels a flow. When he feels a flow, it's a flow. A flow is a flow is a flow 
 is a flow, as far as he's concerned. A is getting to equal A. Any kind of a 
 flow is any kind of a ridge. Any kind of a ridge is any kind of a ridge. And
 a flow could be a ridge could be a dispersal, when he gets down to matter; 
 matter doesn't care. 
 
Now, where do you enter into the picture on this? Well, there's the 
 nastiest, stupidest, doggonedest trick when it comes to MEST universe energy
 and evaluations concerned; let's look at what a dream it is. Now, I want you
 right now, as a class, to just make a little test of this. I want you to 
 get.. I want you to get this.. this.. this feeling: Get the feeling that you
 are agreeing to something. Now, just.. just spend a moment or two at this: 
 Get the feeling you're agreeing to something. (...) Now, you get that 
 feeling?
 
Now, we'll see how good you are individually. Can you get the feeling
 of disagreeing with something now? (...) If you study that over for a moment,
 we won't occupy much time with it, you'll find that the agreement was inflow.
 Did you notice that? Yeah. And uh.. that the disagreement was an outflow. 
 Well, those are your two vectors. And of course if a fellow agrees, agrees, 
 agrees, agrees, agrees with the MEST universe and he keeps on agreeing with 
 the MEST universe, he keeps inviting this inflow. Inflow, inflow, inflow, 
 inflow, inflow, inflow, inflow. And pretty soon it gets stacked up pretty 
 tight around him. He gets darn near like a lump of matter. 
 
All right. Let's get the message that that energy that he's seeing 
 stacked up with is carrying. 
 
 -123- 

 Now, let's get this as a flow: wanting something. Let's get this as a 
 flow: wanting something. Now, let's get as a flow: not wanting something. 
 What do you do to not want something? Well, that fits very nice; that's a 
 very nice mechanic, well, isn't it? When you agree, when you want something, 
 you have.. you agree with it, and when you don't want something, why, you 
 disagree with it. Isn't that cute? Huh. 

 Well, if you agree, if you agree, let's uh.. let's also get this one: 
 uh.. when you agree, you're having something, aren't you? When you agree, 
 then you have something. Well, that's.. that's very logical. In other words, 
 uh.. you want something, you agree. That's all there is to that. So 
 therefore, you can have it. So therefore you can have some time, too. You get
 havingness, you get things and so on. 

 Now, that's all right if the MEST universe can keep you completely in 
 the dark about the fact that there's somebody else in the MEST universe 
 besides you. But any time anybody goes off on the first dynamic and they say 
 the first dynamic is the only dynamic, they're working a control operation; 
 it's a control operation of magnitude. And here's why it's a control 
 operation of magnitude. That's all right, see, that adds up very beautifully.
 When you want something you agree to it and when you don't want something you
 disagree with it. When you're going to have something, you agree with it and 
 when you don't have something, you disagree with it. In other words, not
 have.. that's.. that's perfect, isn't it? As long as it's just you. As long 
 as there's no interchanges.

 Well, the MEST universe tells you that ARC is no good. It tells you 
 it doesn't work and it tells you it can't happen; which is a lie. That is the
 biggest lie it tells, because let's look at a.. the piece of matter that you 
 want. Now, here.. here's flows. You get here the pc, and let's mark the pc as
 "I". All right. Now, that's agree into him and here's "I" again, and that's 
 an outflow, and that's disagree. And here is "I" again, and in we go; he's 
 pulling in, that's want. And we get.. we get it not want. Isn't this orderly,
 as long as it works out in terms of just you. I mean, it works fine, perfect;
 as long as you're never interfered with.. with another flow of any kind 
 whatsoever, this is perfect. And this is the way ARC is broken to pieces. 

 Now, let's take this line up here and let's see what happens over
 here to thee. All right, so we'll just call this "you", as different than 
 that. "You" comes in on an agree, that's "you" agree; you understand, I mean,
 by "you" I mean another person. Here's "I", he's confronted with another
 person; we'll call this other person "you". And here's this other person who 
 is doing a disagree. 

 Now, here we have "you" again wanting and that's he wants. And here 
 is "you" not wanting. Uh.. that's.. that's very interesting, and so forth. I 
 mean, there we have your interrelationship of flows and this tells you, then,
 a lot of interesting things. Very interesting things. Tells you too much, 
 really. Really bogs you down when you start looking at it. 

 Here.. as long as "I" here wants agreement from "you", he will pull 
 into himself agreement, won't he? "I" wants agreement, therefore he's gonna 
 pull in agreement. Now, this is on a calm rational basis; he wants agreement 
 from you. He wants something from you. 

 'Course, what's he gonna get? He's going to get disagreement. The
 second he wants agreement, he gets disagreement. "You", of course, fires back
 at him. I mean, if.. if "I" were completely capable of monitoring the 
 direction of flow of "you" and "I" wanted agreement flowing into him, he
 would get disagreement from "you". See? Simple. 

 -124-

 Now, "I" wants to be disagreed with. He wants things to disagree 
 with him, and uh.. so on. He wants this individual to disagree; he's about to
 be eaten or somebody's gonna give him a cigar that'll make him sick, or 
 something of the sort, and so he says, "I don't want it." Zong! How does this
 react? We have "you" agreeing, don't we? He disagrees and "you" will agree. 

Now, that isn't too bad, but, heh, look at this. When.. when "I"
 wants to disagree here, "I" again, he doesn't want the cigar, he doesn't want
 the meal, something like that, down at the level where flows are confused, so
 it doesn't.. the.. the agreement flow and the want flow, are.. are.. 
 they're.. they're the same thing, practically. Look what happens here when.. 
 when "I" wants to be disagreed with, and so forth, he creates in "you" want. 

You say, "I am no good; I am not edible; I will make you awfully
 sick." The reaction on the part of "you" is to eat. 

Now, "I" wants, here.. let's see what happened when "I" wants
 something, he.. he wants something, it's coming in: anything he wants'll
 disagree with him, of course, because here we are here. 

You want to know why, when you go out and buy a possession in the 
 MEST universe or acquire a possession in the MEST universe, you don't like it
 too well after you own it, after you've acquired it. You've seen that 
 manifestation more times: you just will die until you get that something-or- 
 other, and the second you get it, you say, "Well, there's probably something 
 wrong with it, or I'm not sure whether I want this or not," or something of 
 the sort, and "I really don't quite want it." That's because anything you get
 will disagree with you, of course. 

Now, let's look at it the other way around, and we'll just have "I"
 wanting "you". "I" here wants "you". Okay. He'll create a current flow in
 front of "you" and of course "I" gets "you" not wanting "I". 

Now, let's get a couple, and they're having trouble. And he has 
 decided that he loves her desperately and he wants her desperately and she 
 just doesn't want to have anything to do with him, until the day when he
 finally says, "I don't want you or anything to do with you," and then she 
 wants him desperately. See how that works out? 

Student: Ron, you can check that by wanting something that you know 
 you can't have and see what happens.

Mm-hmm. 

Student: It doesn't run as agree; it runs as disagree, as a.. as an 
 outflow instead of an inflow. 

Mm-hmm. Wanting something you know you can't have, that's right. Guys
 get down to a locked basis on this, so they know that anything they want they
 can't have. 

Now, it gets worse than this. Let's take a look here at agree and
 have. And here, let's take a look at have, and let's take a look in terms of
 time and, you know, have time. 

Now, here we have "I" and "I" has an inflow of agree, and "I" has an
 outflow of disagree, and "I" has an inflow of have and "I" has an outflow of
 not have.

Now, the essentials of energy are have and not have; have and not 

 -125- 

 have. And haves and not haves actually, somehow or other in this cockeyed 
 universe, get together. It's fascinating, isn't it? You'll find more haves 
 supporting the Communist Party. Didn't ever strike you as strange that some
 fellow that makes 5 million dollars a year is supporting the very party that
 will eat him up? Well, that's in terms of appetite. 
 
Now, let's take this as a uh.. a schedule here of person and object.
 This isn't related at the top here. Person and object. And let's have this 
 object, which we will make into.. I'll just put an N there. You see, the 
 behavior of this object, the object is saying, "Have me." Let's say it has 
 that potential on it, object. And here the object is saying, "Don't have me."
 That's actually what a negative terminal might be saying, any time it's 
 putting an outflow - you see, it's established by the polarities - uh.. any..
 any uh.. it might be said, when it's hit.. hitting any kind of an outflow, 
 any terminal is saying, "Don't have me." It's doing a repulsion. And when 
 it's pulling in, it's saying, "Have me." 
 
Well, that's why your very, very low tone scale people, by the way,
 collect only things which are not desirable. 
 
Now, we have.. over here, we have uh.. agree and here we have 
 disagree. This should tell you wonders about possessions and about engrams 
 and deposits of energy, and so forth. Now, what.. what happens here? Now, 
 let's look at the extremes up here: "I" agree and N disagree. We've just 
 covered this; the object of course agrees and disagrees as we saw it on the
 first graph. 
 
Now uh.. this second graph here shows you that if a fellow, if "I",
 in this case, you'd think, agrees with something, he could have it. If he 
 agrees with something, he can have it. Isn't that a beautiful universe? 
 Plus-minus polarities. And if he disagreed with something, he wouldn't have
 to have it, would he? Well, let's look at this. 
 
He agrees with something so it, of course, has a flow pulled around
 past it and it's immediately saying, "Don't have me." The second he agrees 
 with something, it says, "Don't have me." He goes down and he says, "Well, 
 that's fine. The automobile is going to run and uh.. all of this, and I agree
 with this thing perfectly," and of course that day it won't start. That.. 
 it's just a lead-pipe cinch that that's what's gonna happen. 
 
Now, we get disagreement, and the fellow says, "I don't want it. I 
 wouldn't ever touch it if anybody ever gave me one and a million dollars to
 boot. I'd have nothing whatsoever to do with it," and there it is sitting on
 his doorstep. This ferocious and horrible determinism not to have something
 winds up in what? It winds up in making the full vector of matter say, "Have
 me." 
 
Well, now, a fellow.. this tells you something horrible. That tells
 you that you could only really only acquire enMEST. You could never acquire
 good MEST. EnMEST would say enturbulated MEST, busted up toys, run-down 
 thingamabobs; uh.. it tells you that any time you tried to conquer a nation,
 you would conquer rubble. It tells you the automatic result of an attempted
 conquest of a nation would be rubble. It tells you that any time you try to
 get ahold of a great big bank of energy, it's gonna be a mess. It's gonna 
 tell you that if you consistently ran MEST universe facsimiles and ran them
 as facsimiles, that you'd result in scrambling the bank. 
 
Why? Because the preclear is saying, "All right. I agree, I agree to
 run this. I agree to have this energy inflow. I agree to have this energy 
 inflow." And what do you know, the energy at that moment is going to say, 
 
 -126- 

 "Don't have me." "I agree to this inflow, and therefore I'm gonna run this 
 -- engram." Result: occlusion. 
 
 All right. Here, he says, "I uh.. don't want that damned engram. I'm 
 not going to have anything to do with it, and to hell with it. It's not gonna
 influence me, it's not gonna influence me, it's not gonna influence me." It 
 says, "Have me." He rejects it and he's got 1t. Why? It agrees with him. 
 
 But there is a little bit of light. If you were to say to an engram,
 if you were to say to an engram, "To hell with you," it would wind up owned.
 If you were simply to say to an engram, "Okay. So we've got it here on the
 track" - and we finally locate it in space and time, that's all. Now you say,
 "To hell with you." Watch it blow up. Just put out a good strong impact 
 against the engram of "to hell with you!" It's worth an experiment, you see,
 'cause it'll work. 
 
 You get this beautifully clear lock and just suddenly muster up, just
 muster up and.. and you've got the thing located (that's of course 90 percent
 of running it). Uh.. you've got the thing located and then just put out an 
 upsurge between it and watch what happens to it. It'll go zook. It'll 
 actually change location in space. Without monitoring it any further, you 
 just put an ouf low and say, "Zong. I don't want anything to do with you." 
 It's liable to explode, or go away, or anything. 
 
 But.. but we say, "All right. All right. The MEST universe is trying 
 to make me do this and that. And in school they wanted me to do so-and-so and
 that uh.. here they wanted me to do that, and every place they've gone.. 
 they.. and so on; and the thing for me to do is to knuckle down and to do rqy
 job of work and get in there at 10 o'clock in the morning and.. and.. and 
 work right straight through till 10 o'clock at night, and.. and.. and do all
 of this, and I.. I'm going to agree to this, and I'm everything..." Oh, boy.
 Boy, is that job gonna disagree with you! 
 
 The first thing you know, they're gonna say, "Well, that's it, that 
 bum. He just works sa... he's a sap. Uh.. ah, well. Uh.. I.. I know.. I know
 a fellow down the road, oh, we've got him.. the next post above him is open 
 uh.. in the uh.. department so uh.. I know a fellow down the road that used 
 to shovel uh.. uh.. stuff out of the curbs and off the curbs and things like
 that, and I think he'd probably.. I.. I don't know. He doesn't seem to want 
 to work here. Let's put him on." 
 
 The Service is the most wonderful place of this in all possible 
 operations, because the Service doesn't give a damn; it's too down low tone 
 scale for anything to happen anyway. And one day, just as an experiment, I 
 told a kid that - I.. I was in the hospital, and uh.. the kid was off one of
 my ships and he came in and he says, "I've got to get back aboard," he says.
 "I can't stand this place any longer." Ne says, "What do I do? What do I do 
 to get back aboard?" 
 
 And I said, "Well, the next time the doctor comes in interviews you 
 down in the ward, you say, "Now, I don't feel very well and I don't see why 
 I'd have to be returned to duty, because my stomach hurts, and I hurt this 
 way and I'm in bad shape." And I said, "Make it very convincing. The truer 
 you make it, the faster it works." And I.. so I just explained to on this. 
 
 He says, "Gee, that sounds awful dangerous to me. They're liable to 
 keep me here." 
 
 "No, no. No, no," I said. That's.. sick call was at 9 o'clock and he 
 was up with his kid at 10 o'clock shaking me by the hand and saying, "I'll 
 
-127- 

 see you back aboard, Skipper." I got him out of there from guns! 
 
 Now, there as some kid that was running the communications 
 information center on a big cruiser; there wasn't any other officer remaining 
 aboard that cruiser who could run the CIC, Combat Information Center. And 
 uh.. that cruiser was hot and heavy, right in the middle of everything. And 
 this kid had to have an operation for a piece of shell fragment, and so on. 
 And they sent him back to the States in a hurry by special plane so they 
 could have him back again because there was a terrible scarcity of good CIC 
 officers. And the second he said to 'em, unfortunately, "I'm necessary aboard 
 my ship," the last I heard he'd been there 14 months. 
 
 This is the modus operandi, but don't take that as.. don't.. don't 
 take what I'm saying as freak. It's not a freak. I'm not talking about a uh.. 
 a peculiar, occasional manifestation. I'm talking about agree. I'm talking
 about disagree. And when I'm talking about "have me" and "don't have me", I'm 
 talking about time. 
 
 So, this individual wants time, he, of course, wants time. He's got 
 to have, to want time. In order to have time, he's got to have, you see; he's 
 got to have an object. He really does have to have an object. If you don't
 believe it, try to go on a vacation sometime with not a dime in your jeans. --
 
 He wants to have; in other words, he wants time. And what's he find, 
 the second he does this? The object that he gets disagrees with him so he 
 can't have any liberty. The second he wants some time, he can't have liberty. 
 The moment he decides that he wants some time on his hands, he is, at that
 moment, going to have.. the things which he does have become disagreeable.
 They're gonna upset, uh.. the gaskets are gonna blow and so forth. 
 
 It isn't anything mysterious. Don't look at this as something 
 mysterious that sits in back of something or other and it depends on chance. 
 A roulette wheel is chance; this is not chance. This is the way it works. 
 
 So he's got to have in order to have more time in order to do this 
 and that. He sends away to Sears & Roebuck in order to get one of these 
 whirligig windmill machines that will run a storage battery so he can have
 lights in his house, and he spends a lot of time lighting this thing up. Then 
 he'll have some time to read at night, and he's got this up, see, and he 
 won't have to waste all that time filling that lamp or lighting that candle 
 or striking that match and reading that book page. And he sends all this 
 away, and what's he spend the rest of his time doing? Keeps climbing that 
 tower and fixing that propellor and going down the tower, and so forth, and 
 by golly, he never has any time to read. 
 
 You see, he doesn't get an agreeable time; he gets.. he gets some
 time, all right. 
 
 Now, what would he have if he says, "Now, I don't have to.. I don't 
 have to have any.. I don't need that. I.. I don't need that at all. Let's 
 see, I'll get along with what we have and the hell with it. Ah, well, make, 
 ah.. what we got do, and we don't want any of this other stuff." Actually,
 the riches of the universe pour in on his head. Everything around him starts 
 saying, "Have me, have me, have me; ga.. how about me?" That's.. that's the 
 way she works. 
 
 So, if he has.. if he.. if he wants time - and he, by the way, 
 unfortunately, gets all kinds of time, because the universe says, "Have me". 
 So either way you look at it, you get flypaper. You see, there's no.. no way 
 out of the flypaper. If you decide not to have with the universe and disagree 
 
 -128- 

 with it thoroughly and rush against it and disagree the hell out of it, it 
 says, "Come to Papa." And if you say, "I agree with you, I agree with you," 
 and.. and uh.. all that, and all is well, why, uh.. it says, "We don't want 
 anything to do with you, fellow." For every win, there's a lose; for every 
 lose, there's a win. 
 
 One of the v.. very interesting things that you can run with a 
 preclear: he's loused up on time. What is apathy but too much time? That's 
 right, it's energy. It's too thick a havingness. He's got too much. 
 
 If you want to take somebody and really cure him of apathy, if he 
 feels that he is in terrible danger and dire straits, the damndest thing: 
 have him take everything he owns, except the shirt he stands in and the pants
 and shoes he's wearing, and take it out and throw it away. Regardless what it
 is or anything else, just have him take it out and dump it and destroy it. 
 And what do you know, he gets lots more space, right away. Instantly, get 
 lots more space. 
 
 If you could get a psycho.. you could get a psycho to part with one
 of the Kleenexes in the box of Kleenex which you've just presented them,
 you're pretty good. Whoa, boy! They're having a hell of a time. 
 
 You say, "Part with one word." Uh-huh. No, they're saying, "Agree, 
 agree, I agree, I've agreed, I've agreed, and my God, I'm getting so rocky I
 don't know which end I'm standing on, but I've agreed; don't punish me any 
 further, I can't stand the pain. Don't punish me any further, I agree." And 
 they wind up by having to have everything which is disagreeable. Everything 
 which is disagreeable then and there happens to them.
 
 You wonder why machinery doesn't work for some people. Well, there's 
 nothing mysterious about it. It isn't anything esoteric you're examining; it
 isn't anything that goes into the firmament in some fashion or another and is
 tailor-made by some god. This thing's already been set up. You say to this 
 piece of equipment, "I don't want you," or, "I don't care what happens to 
 you." A null or a flow against and it works. And you say to it, "All right. 
 Now, let's see. You have to do this and you have to do that to it, and you 
 have to do something else, and we'll have to take good care of it; we'll have
 to wash it and we'll have to grease it, and we have to paint it and we have 
 to polish it and we have to buy licenses for it, and so forth, and we have to
 park it out front, and we park it out back," and so on. You'll find out all 
 of a sudden that the payments on it, or something or other, and that is.. 
 this, or something or other, and then it needs replacement, because there's a
 later model. It won't take you anyplace, either. It's always in the garage, 
 or someplace else. It's fascinating. 
 
 The thing which you either completely disregard or disagree with will
 serve. 
 
 Now, there's a level of outflow.. there's a level of outflow which is
 so low on the tone scale that it is just MEST handling MEST, and that just 
 doesn't work. Your Japanese officer in the Philippines, for instance, found 
 out a locomotive wouldn't go, so he had his men beat it with sticks. It
 didn't go. It's just MEST handling MEST. On that level, everything is enMEST.
 The guy, the object, everything. And you have to go up tone scale a little 
 bit to get this principle very smoothly workable. You can't take a 
 sledgehammer and smash all the spark plugs of a car in frightful 
 disagreement, and so forth, and have the car function. 
 
 Now, the way to handle a car is the way you handle anything else. 
 There is a difference of flows, you understand. If you just differentiate 
 
 -129-

 flows, you're all right. You can put out a sort of a smooth wave to this car
 and you say, "All right, all right, let's go, let's run." No gas, no tank, 
 nothing; it turns over. You think I'm kidding. 
 
You've got to come up tone scale a little bit to do that sort of 
 thing, but there're pieces of equipement around that just absolutely have no
 business running whatsoever. There's no business running. And you put 'em 
 under somebody else's management, and they won't run. They just quit, right 
 there. That's because they were being kept alive with something rare than 
 mechanical information. 
 
Now, it's hard for an engineer.. it's hard for an engineer, as 
 indoctrinated as he is into the workability of structure and mechanics, to 
 recognize or even look at this factor. This is another one of these factors,
 but by golly, this.. it's just as actual and real as that electric light. 
 MEST works when it has been aligned by theta. You look in the old axioms for
 homo sapiens, it covers this to a heck of a degree. MEST works as long as 
 it's been aligned by theta. And as long as the MEST flow that's going out is
 aligning, MEST hasn't.. no.. I mean, pardon me; the theta flow going out is 
 aligning MEST, MEST doesn't have a chance in the world. It just has to get 
 into line, that's all. You get a smooth outgoing flow. 
 
But your engineer building a dam, anyplace he is, knows this, 
 continually: He gets one foreman and all the equipment goes to hell and
 nothing happens, but obviously he's a good foreman. He'll get another foreman
 and everything runs smooth as a clock. And the difference flowing off of 
 these two men can be sensed by the individual himself. 
 
One is gonna get the job done one way or the other, and so on. And 
 the other says, "Yeah, I can do the job." He doesn't necessarily say it
 without volume, but the MEST lines up. Energy vectors, somebody understands 
 the law of something or other or something like that, he really just enforces
 into it.
 
Okay. I hope you understand a little bit more, because you look this
 over a little bit more, you're gonna find a lot more there than I've written
 down. I leave it your wits to figure out the rest of it. 
Let's take a break. 
(TAPE ENDS) 
 
  -130- 
