 This is December 2nd, second hour, afternoon. The first hour there
 covered this matter of locks, secondaries, and engrams. Just want to repeat
 here. 
 
 It's a gradient scale, then, of ability to handle space, energy, and
 objects, a gradient scale thereof. You'll find out there are some cases who 
 have finally come down to the point where they think they can handle very 
 well the space, energy, and objects appertaining to being a Homo sapiens in 
 one lifetime. They think that's the case. They become what you have seen 
 occasionally as the wide open case. 
 
 They record everything beautifully, they will run things beautifully
 on one lifetime. Don't let this wide open case, however, open up or try to 
 get him to open up any wider on existence -- because they won't, very easily.
 They do it very badly. 
 
 Your occluded case quite often is somebody who is trying to handle 
 his whole track. Your high power occluded case is somebody who's trying to 
 handle the whole track. He's.. he's trying to handle the whole universe and 
 of course it's all occluded. And he.. he realizes he can't handle it. And at
 the same time, he's bound and determined he is going to handle it. And.. uh..
 he kn.. he knows he can't occupy any point of space, but he's going to occupy
 those points of space anyhow. And he's unwilling to let go of the points of 
 space he's been in because they might be valuable. And.. uh.. so he won't 
 occupy the point of space where he is because that's dangerous too, but it's
 still valuable, but it's not as valuable as occupying some other points of 
 space he knows about. And he isn't going to give up anything. 
 
 You're.. you're not going to find him handing up and saying, "I just
 live one life." Um-um. No sir, he's gonna handle the whole track. Now, he 
 gets.. he gets kinda squirrelly on this every once in a while. He'll - he's 
 so bound and determined he's gonna handle a larger portion of the universe 
 that he thinks the larger portion of the universe is interested sometimes in
 handling him. And you get a computing psychotic. He's.. who'll tell you.. 
 who'll tell you, "Well, my brain has just been wired by Western Union and.. 
 uh.. so that the U.S. Government can read my mind. And everything I think it
 goes on a tape recorder in Washington and they investigate this very 
 thoroughly and I'm trying not to think of the secret that I know, because if
 I think of that, then they will have me," or something of the sort. Really 
 squirrelly. 
 
 But that's the reductio ad absurdum of just that.. just that, and it
 is quite absurd. 
 
 But these boys, you'll see.. a lot of 'em, and they're actually not
 as.. as bad off as far as responsibility is concerned. They will handle and 
 try and tackle much more responsibility than a wide open case will, BUT 
 they're trying to tackle it on a big sphere, no little sphere for them. 
 
 Your wide open case is being perfectly content to handle just exactly
 this. They're in a very close agreement on MEST and their agreement that they
 are there, they're there where they've been placed and that they have 
 recorded things just in this fashion and that those things are in this order
 and it's very easy to upset one of those cases. But they're quite easy to 
 theta clear and bring on around to a wider point. They're quite easy because
 you can undo the track of agreement with them fairly smoothly. 
 
 Uh.. these cases appear to be quite, quite dissimilar. Actually 
 they're.. it's a problem of spheres of action between these two cases. Your 
 wide open case's sphere of action you will find is a very small sphere of 
 
 -87- 

 action and.. your occluded case is trying to make a much larger sphere of 
 action. Actually, your wide open case gets in considerable trouble because
 their sphere of action is not this small center. Your occluded case also gets
 into trouble because their sphere of action is not the sphere of action that
 they can handle at that moment in that condition. So what do you find? You
 find theta overreaching itself. It's always trying to overreach itself. It's
 always biting off more than it can facsimilacate. 
 
 And when.. when you.. get a confusion in a preclear, you don't have
 to care too much about the minor structural mechanics of it. These all handle
 on the same thing. They handle in terms of space and energy and objects. And
 you just enter into the case, you just.. you just know where he falls on the
 scale.. uh.. on the theta clearing scale. And you just pick it up at that 
 level and go on from there. 
 
 You don't care whether this fellow's occluded, you don't care whether
 he's wide open. You don't care anything about that at all. Because the reason
 he's occluded and the reason he's wide open has to do with how much 
 responsibility he is trying to take and how much of that responsibility he is
 taking. And it's a ratio. 
 
 And when this ratio is bad, he's trying to take.. uh.. let's say 
 10,000 units of responsibility and at the moment he.. his state and 
 environment is in this condition whereby he could only take 500 units of 
 responsibility, you'll.. you'll get him .. you'll get him badly occluded. 
 But.. uh.. he'd actually be badly occluded if he were capable, and he were
 trying to take 200 units of responsibility in terms of space, energy, 
 objects. And.. uh.. this environment he was in and so forth was letting him
 in gently on the secret that he was only capable of taking over 10 units. 
 
 Your wide open case maybe is taking over.. believes it's capable of
 taking over 500 units and is taking over 500 units. You see this.. this 
 society is rigged so that it's quite agreeable, if a person has agreed that I
 am one person in one lifetime and I am living this and my name is Jones and
 there I am and.. uh.. they're so and so, and that's all my full 
 responsibility on the matter at the time of life where I am. And his 
 environment tells him, "You are capable of taking over the responsibility of
 being Jones in one lifetime." It's all very nice. It's all very sweet. He's
 nuts of course, but.. uh.. uh.. he is not occluded, which is important. 
 
 Uh.. but.. uh.. well, you know, you have a harder struggle sometimes
 with the wide open than you have with the occluded case. Sometimes it works
 the other way around. You want to get this kind of a balance. You want to get
 as much responsibility digested as the person believes he can digest. If he
 thinks he has an enormously wide responsibility, well, you just better move
 him up in terms of responsibility. 
 
 There's only one thing wrong with that, is he's hungry. He's hungry
 and he.. he's everytime you restore to him the ability to handle.. handle 
 another 10 units of responsibility, he.. he bites another 200. And as such
 the auditor's sort of racing with this and he.. he sees.. he sees this 
 strange thing sometimes: his preclear's evidently increasing in tone but he's
 just as thoroughly occluded and loused up as before. And he keeps watching
 this and watching this. 
 
 Now it isn't the time to tell this preclear, "Now look, we have 
 decided that you need a rest and uh.. I think you'd better take a vacation or
 something of this sort and.. and don't worry about all these big affairs that
 you're trying to worry about now, and just let that sort of thing go and just
 take it easy.. and.." You're going to ruin him. 'Cause that's one of the 
 
 -88- 

 steps that is taken as one of the control operations that is used on a person
 to get him into the automaticity schedule. It's telling him, "You can't stand
 up to this, fella." That's what it's saying. 
 
 It said, "You've taken over just this much responsibility and you 
 can't stand up to that." So it's reducing him down the scale. 
 
 You just try to track along behind, as the auditor, and just let him,
 let his capability catch up to his desire to do so. And in creative 
 processing.. in creative processing, we have the happy thing that we are 
 aiming toward doing what he is trying to do. See, we're going in directly so
 that catch-up is easier. 
 
 If you were to keep addressing that catch-up to the material 
 universe, it would practically never.. you'd never catch up with it. He'd 
 just go wider, and wider, and wider and take in more and more responsibility
 and more and more space, and try to digest more and more space. And you'd let
 him digest 10 more units and he wants to take 200 more and you just keep 
 going on this ratio until you've practically eaten up the whole MEST 
 universe. 
 
 Now, maybe you could get there this way and it's very possible that
 you could, but fortunately it isn't necessary because this person is 
 operating under a delusion. He has never differentiated one single, 
 interesting point. And that is the MEST universe is not his own universe.
 And he believes that his universe and the MEST universe are identical. 
 
 His own home universe, you might say, using an allegory here, became
 devoured so fast at a.. such a.. an impact of shock to him that when he next
 looked around, he thought he was still in his own universe, but it had 
 changed. And he's still under the basic postulate that he's running his own
 universe. He's still caught in that postulate. And so he's.. can start 
 anybody doing anything, but he can't change them in doing it after they've
 started and he can't stop them after they've started. And this is completely
 flabbergasting to him. This is incredible. 
 
 Now in his own universe, he would start something.. he'd create 
 something, start it in motion, change it, let it dwindle down a spiral maybe
 and then destroy it. That was his power. And he all of a sudden finds himself
 obviously in his own universe, obvious. And he starts something and then he
 follows through the next step kind of doggedly. And he says, "Now," he says,
 "We'll change it." Oh no. Inertia and things like that set in. 
 
 He's.. like a cannonball. He fires the cannonball and he decides when
 it's halfway in its flight it shouldn't land. So he says, "All right. The 
 cannonball will now go twenty feet to the left and miss the target." And that
 damn cannonball goes right straight on through and it hits the target. BOOM!
 Or he fires the cannonball; finds out that his aim was wrong. 
 
 Did you ever see anybody firing on a range? If you're watching an 
 expert rifleman on a range and he realizes that the instant that he pulled
 that trigger was 6 o'clock, number three ring, he tries to lift that bullet.
 You can watch him just lift that bullet up into the target. He's trying to
 lift the bullet into the target because he knows he was low when he fired the
 trigger. 
 
 Did you ever watch anybody driving a car? And they realize that the
 car's going just a little bit wrong or something of the sort? They try to 
 take the steering wheel of the car and move the car over and make it go 
 right. And MEST hands can't do that. 
 
 -89- 

 So that's very disgusting. It's upsetting. You start some action and
 then the action goes off and then all of a sudden isn't going in the 
 direction that you intended it to go, so you reach out with everything you've
 got and try to right that action and change it into a better course, and it
 doesn't change. And that we call failure. And that is the anatomy of failure.
 
 The inability to handle that which has been started, or which one has
 started after that course of action is entered. Inability to handle it after
 that course of action has been entered. 
 
 What happens in a family? The guy has a little child, little child, 
 nice.. nice kid, baby, so on. And he says, "Gonna be president." What do you
 know? Turns out to be a subway conductor. Yeah, that's just no good. That 
 just obviously can't happen in his universe and it's obviously his universe.
 
 We know it's his universe. He knows it's his universe. Why, sure. He
 is himself, and all these other people around are people he obviously has 
 made. And if you went around and put people on the E-meter and you asked 
 them, "Did you.. did you make everybody that you've seen?" and so on and so..
 Look at you sort of strangely and he gets the strangest feeling, "Yah, I.. I
 did. I.. hmm.. No, I know I didn't. But they don't do what you tell them to
 do." And now you get this little ghost coming in, see? 
 
 Everybody in this universe is trying to act as though he made it. And
 he didn't make this universe, he just kinda helped add to it. And he adds to
 it all the time by perceiving it. And he agrees to it all the time by 
 perceiving it. And so he's never crossed that bridge. He's.. he's never 
 suddenly said, "I had a universe once which I monitored completely and this
 universe, somehow or other got left, and I found myself in a universe which I
 WASN'T monitoring." And he's never crossed that bridge. 
 
 Well, you don't have to tell him really, or convince him that he has
 to cross that bridge. All you have to do is take him and show him that he has
 a universe. It's just as simple as that. 
 
 You say, "All right. Now, mock up this, now mock up that, now let's 
 have a little bit of that. All right, now let's take a cube of space." 
 
 He says, "What?" 
 
 "Well, just take some space in the room and saw out a little cube 
 and.." 
 
 "I can't do that." It's the darndest inability and he.. he's suddenly
 shocked. He finds out that he has a lot of inabilities. 
 
 It's quite shocking for a person the moment they find out in creative
 processing that they have some inability along the line of creative 
 processing. 'Cause they've just.. have gone on grandly assuming that the MEST
 universe is that ability and it keeps on running. So obviously, they're kind
 of doing it all the time and they just never added this up into the terms of
 "I have to go ahead and monitor re environment if I'm going to have any kind
 of a universe or if I'm going to do anything with a universe." 
 
 So you give him mock-ups and you let them reassume the ability to 
 create and control their own universe. When you do that they get right back
 in to what they were doing at the time when they got blown out of their 
 orbit. And you redevelop this facility and they all of a sudden can see, 
 "Well, there's nothing wrong with my mind! There's nothing wrong with my 
 ability! I can handle this body! I can handle these throngs! Well, for 
 
 -90- 

 heaven's sakes! All this time I just thought I'd just lost my punch!" 
 
 Here are all those dogs that run down the street. I.. I.. they run 
 down the street and they start barking and you.. you.. you say, "Don't bark.
 And they go right on barking. So obviously I lost my.. my touch. I mean I'm
 not controlling my own universe anymore." And they've never realized that 
 it's a different universe. 
 
 Now, that perhaps.. perhaps would sound strange to you when you.. 
 when you first run into this fact but it happens to be.. uh.. a.. a very 
 interesting and very simple proof of it. Uh.. Mock-up processing works. 
 That's the easiest proof I know. 
 
 Yeah, you can start doing this stuff and.. and if you do it according
 to the way you're supposed to do it and so on and all of a sudden the fellow
 is better and better. And somatics turn off and everything goes along fine 
 and he gets up the tone scale and gets better and a little better and his 
 disabilities all of a sudden decrease. And he gets bigger and bigger and more
 ambitious and he's saying at first, "To hell with this MEST universe. Don't
 want anything to do with the thing again," and then he'll say, "Well, hell,
 it's just another universe. Uh.. let's see. What do you do with universes? 
 Well, just saw a chunk off the left hand corner and reverse it just for the
 hell of it this afternoon." And.. uh.. it just.. uh.. there.. it's nothing to
 it. 
 
 But let's enter this in another's.. from another little gateway. 
 There are many ways. Is the MEST universe an illusion? Yeah, that's an 
 interesting question. Is it an illusion? A lot of people have dashed around
 saying, "It's all illusion. There is no such thing as matter." All you had to
 do was think right thoughts and you think right thoughts, why, you don't 
 think left thoughts and.. uh.. uh.. it'll all.. it'll all wind up someplace
 else in the end and it belongs to somebody else. And, they've said this but
 there wasn't any good remedy for it. And uh.. they've said this a lot of 
 times and.. uh.. never backed it up. 
 
 Well, let's.. let's back it up a little bit. Let's take a look at 
 this. Let's find out first what's an illusion. An illusion is something 
 somebody made. Very technically, let's make an illusion that which the 
 preclear makes. Let's just use that as a narrowed down word. And let's call a
 delusion something somebody else made. Let's just categorize that handily. 
 
 Now.. a delusion could also be something the preclear has made that 
 he has also said somebody else made. He.. he made it and then he said 
 somebody else made it. You can call that also a delusion. But.. let's not 
 worry too much about that 'cause that comes under the heading of automaticity
 so let's just narrow this definition down to this: an illusion is something
 the preclear makes and a delusion is something somebody else makes. Now 
 let's.. let's go from there. 
 
 We know that other person doesn't have to know it's an illusion or 
 delusion or anything of the sort. 
 
 All right. Let's take another test. Take a good test. Let's take 
 perception. One of the things your preclear is worried about above all other
 things and that you as an auditor will worry about above all other things is
 perception. We'll have to cover this just dry ad nauseam: perception. But how
 do you make that wall get greener to you all of a sudden and so forth? Now..
 how.. how do you.. how do you step these perceptions up? Hmm. 
 
 Well, you know that you can process out an awful lot of engrams about
 
 -91- 
 

 seeing color without making that wall get one bit brighter. You can agree 
 with this MEST universe and agree with it and agree with it and agree with it
 and agree with it and it doesn't get any plainer. In fact you can agree with
 it and agree with it until it gets thinner and less distinct and you become
 less active and you become more and more lethargic and sort of like a stone
 or a piece of mud. You get more and more MEST the more you agree with it. The
 more you agree with it the more MEST you get to be. 
 
 Well, is that true? Yeah, let's look around at preclears and let's 
 test them for terms of agreement with the MEST universe. By doing what? By 
 taking a basic, simple, natural law and let's put preclears on the tone 
 scale, let's spot them accurately on the tone scale, and we'll find out that
 their degree of delusion and aberration and so on, we find out their ability
 or inability to control themselves and just.. just measure this, pretty 
 accurately. And then.. then let's get them to mock up something and make it
 disobey a natural law. Let's make them mock up a billiard ball and fall and
 hit the ceiling. 
 
 No.. no. They know about gravity. And this character will just sit 
 there and he'll take that billiard ball and he'll try to make it lift. And if
 he gets it up a little bit, it'll drop hack again suddenly, and he'll have 
 the awfullest time. But he has a bad time trying to make the billiard ball 
 fall upwards in the exact degree that he's aberrated. 
 
 You could plot the gradient scale of trying to make a billiard ball 
 leap off the floor and hit the ceiling and the amount of aberration in terms
 of engrams and secondaries, and so forth that he has, and behavior and 
 ability to control, and reaction time, and register on the E-meter. You just
 take this curve after curve after curve and we fit that one in with it, and
 we find out that this individual can't mock things up and make them disobey
 what he calls natural law and which he does not differentiate as this: 
 natural law of the physical universe. He is.. in a state of complete 
 obedience to the MEST universe. 
 
 Now, your hypnotized subject becomes in a state of complete obedience
 to the hypnotist. Let's consider the MEST universe a hypnotist, and let's 
 consider this preclear a subject and find out that the subject is as deluded
 as the hypnotist wants him to be. And so we have.. over here then a direct 
 application of this. And we find out the degree of agreement with natural law
 is also the degree of aberration of the preclear. Fascinating, isn't it? 
 
 Now, this person's alertness and other things like that will add up 
 on that scale. 
 
 Well, that's.. that's very interesting because we have hypnotism
 which can be demonstrated as a phenomenon, and we show that the greater and
 greater agreement, all you do to hypnotize somebody is just make him agree..
 agree.. agree and after that he'll see anything. He'll do anything, he'll see
 anything. He agrees, agrees, agrees. 
 
 All right. Now let's consider then that aspect. And now let's take 
 the next test. Is the MEST universe an illusion? Next test, very neat little
 test. We find out that the ability to perceive an illusion determines the 
 ability to perceive the MEST universe. How? By doing this: this person 
 becomes more and more and more capable of producing and perceiving illusions
 and perceiving their character, depth, size, and their emotional tone. And as
 his ability increases in the production of illusion, his ability to perceive
 the MEST universe increases uniformly with it. 
 
 What do you know. You have to be able to see an illusion before you 
 are able to see MEST. 
 
 -92- 

 This is awfully convincing stuff. Oh boy, that's really convincing. 
 And when you do that, that is one of the nicest tricks you could ever do. You
 say, "Now, you want to know if this stuff is real? All you gotta do is stamp
 on i. and it'll tell you whether or not that's real. And that proves it's 
 real and that proves that Man came from mud." 
 
 That proves anything you want to prove. But the funny part of it is..
 is you've got a MEST universe energy constructed foot hitting a MEST universe
 energy platform, and of course the two cone together. Thev've agreed to go 
 that way. And you perceive that they go that way. 
 
 How do you perceive? Oh, that.. that.. that's that.. that's just 
 horrible. How do you perceive? Gee, this.. when you.. when you find out 
 finally how you perceive, you're going to be ashamed of yourselves. You put 
 this wall here, see. You.. you do this just pockata pockata pockata pockata 
 pockata pockata. You pu.. keep putting this wall there, see? Put the wall 
 there. and then you reach out and you fell the wall. And you say, It's there.
 See, feel?" 
 
 Now, you.. you put a feeling called WALL out here. And then you reach
 out,, you.. oh, pardon i. You put a feeling called WALL out here and then you
 put a dimension from you to WALL. And then you put a.. a.. a feeler out here
 and you touch the wall arid you say, "Wall is there, and the reason the wall
 is there is I KNOW it is there because I see it." 
 
 Now that SEE is just the sight band of perception. The.. the wave, 
 photon wave length of perception which is a manufactured energy, that's a 
 very wonderful gimmick. A fellow can manufacture energy anyplace. He can even
 manufacture photons for the sun to throw out. 
 
 Now, let's take a look at this wall again and we find out that we 
 know it's there because we can see it. Well, we have to have photons in order
 to see i:. Well, that's great. But you have to put a sight here in order to 
 record the sight. Oh, I mean, when a fellow realizes he's doing that all the
 time, he realizes he puts a sight over on the.. 
 
 By the way, he sometimes in the processing and so on momentarily 
 loses the ability to do so, you see. He's.. he's kinda fumbling for this 
 ability and he's unwilling to let this MEST universe ability, which is a 
 beautiful piece of automaticity if there ever was one - just gorgeous - and 
 he's unwilling to be too brash about this. 
 
 But he.. we're.. we're practicing this, you know, with the preclear 
 with mock-ups. We have him reach out, put a mock-up out here. "All right, now
 feel the cheerfulness conning from that mock-up." He does. "Now.. now feel the
 intensity of light coming from that mock-up." He knows, he puts it over there
 and he gets it hack again. He's going through this and all of a sudden, he 
 looks at the room. And he looks right through the wall.. No! 
 
 So he quickly puts the wall there and gets it back again and he says,
 "Hhh," and then he says, "Wait a minute. I put the wall there and I'll get it
 back again. Why don't I put a wall two feet this way from it and get it back
 again?" He does! It worlds. So he puts the wall back where it belongs and is
 perfectly comfortable about it thereafter. It's all right. It's there when he
 wants it there. 
 
 Now whether or not a person can be running down the street in a car 
 and see a big brick wall standing in front of him and he perceives that brick
 wall and.. uh.. he NEGLECTS to perceive the brick wall. See, neglecting to 
 put it there, it would be merely occluding it. It's there. You've agreed with
 
 -93- 

 a lot of other people and they work all the time putting it there. And you're
 in this big agreement so you just take the lines from them actually. 
 
 And you run your car into the brick wall and the fenders get all 
 dented and everything just goes to the devil and so on. And you say, "Now, if
 I just, let's see. Is it possible for me to put.. Let's see, we'll take that
 brick wall and we'll move it a block down the street so we won't hit it." And
 you do this in the last instant, just before the crash. We just pick this 
 brick wall up and put it a block down the street. 
 
 Don't do it. Don't do it. For a good reason: if you really get your
 horsepower up it'll go a block down the street and you'll just bust the 
 living daylights out of an awful lot of people's what? Reality. In other 
 words, you will break their agreements to smithereens. Don't do i'.. 
 
 Course you never try to do this, you, you never, never try to do 
 this. This.. this is.. is not one of your penchants. 
 
 Did you ever ask a preclear, "Did you ever run into anything with a
 car?" 
 
 The fellow says, "Yeah, yeah." All right, now, you say, "Now, let's
 take that visio you have of that stopped up.." 
 He'll say, "Yeah, well, do I have a visio of it." 
 And now you say, "Well, what is the visio of it?" 
 
 "It's.. It's just an instant before the crash." He's still got this
 picture of the brick wall, the tree, the other car and so on. It's just an
 instant before the crash. 
 
 How do you finish up that picture? You can fool around all you want
 to in processing it and running it back and forth. You don't find this
 picture washes up very easily. 
 
 Give him a mock-up of the same tree and let him finally do with it 
 what he was trying to do. And at the instant you succeed in that, he no 
 longer has that picture. But I don't know any other kind of processing 
 that'll wipe out that confounded picture. It just sits there and it sits 
 there and it sits there. He stopped time evidently. Just an instant before
 the crash he tried to pick up the tree and so forth and put it a block down
 the road so he couldn't hit it. 
 
 He didn't stop time for a good reason. There isn't any time to stop,
 which we'll go into. But there was an object there and changing the place of
 this object in space was his intention. His inability to do it tells him that
 he hasn't changed the object in space so he still sits there and he's got a
 facsimile of it. And he still looks at it as not having been changed in space
 and he looks at it as a big failure. 
 
 Just drill him. Have him, "Mock up.. mock up a toothpick and put the
 toothpick there. Now let's mock up a toothpick again and let's put the 
 toothpick two inches further. Now let's mock up a toothpick again and let's
 put this toothpick two feet away." He says, "It keeps slapping in and trying
 to hit me in his face." 
 
 You say, "That's all right, that's all right. Now, let's get that 
 toothpick there and let's just hold it there two feet from you. You got it?
 Now turn it blue, now turn it red, now send it over to the right, and send it
 
 -94- 
 

 to the left and so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so and so.."
 "Yeah," he says, "It stays there now." 
 
 Now he's got the toothpick there. "Good, good. Now move it an inch 
 further away." 
 
 He says, "It kinda comes back toward me." 
 
 You say, "Well now, move it an inch further away and then move it a
 foot closer to you." 
 "Mmmm. I don't like to do that." 
 You say, "Now come on, let's.. just move it a foot closer to you."
 "Mmmm. I don't like to do that." 
 
 You say, "Now come on, let's.. just move it a foot closer to you."
 "All right, but it just keeps right on coming." 
 
 "All right put two toothpicks up there and have them go through and 
 appear on the other side of your head." 
 
 And he says, "Well, all right." 
 
 "Now put two more toothpicks in front of you and put those through 
 your head and put them on the outside." 
 "Okay." 
 "Put two more toothpicks and put them on.. behind your head." 
 "All right. Uh.. two more toothpicks.." "Oh, sure." 
 "All right, now put those two toothpicks out there, you got them?" 
 "Okay, got them." 
 "All right, now move them one inch further away." 
 "All right, I've done that." 
 "Well, now move them a foot further away." 
 "Well, okay." 
 "Now move them clear down the next block." 
 "All right." 
 "Now put a tree there." 
 "Okay." 
 "Now move it a block further down the street." 
 "Okay." 
 "Now put a car there." 
 
 -95- 
 

 "Okay." 
 "Move it a block further down the str.." 
 "Nah, it keeps running back up to the same place." 
 
 "Well, take the car and throw it behind you. Put another car there, 
 throw it behind you. T.. put another car there, throw it behind you. Put 
 another car there, throw it behind you. Put another.." 
 
 "Oh, I got it. I'm throwing them behind re. A big junk pile back 
 there now." 
 
 "All right, put a bo.. Put a bomb in the middle of the junk pile and 
 blow it up. Okay, got that? Now, put a car in front of you and move it a 
 block down the street." 
 "Okay, I can do that." 
 "Where's the picture of the accident?" 
 "What accident?" 
  
 You let him do what he was trying to do which was to pick up the 
 tree, the car, the brick wall and he knows he can do this in his own 
 universe. And that's all he's interested in rehabilitating, is his ability to
 do it in his own universe. The only reason he's hanging on to MEST is because
 he has the disability of not being able to do it for himself. 
 
 MEST is a secondary manifestation. You take this stuff money. A 
 fellow has gotten the idea that he needs money to acquire. That's very 
 interesting. You take most of your preclears and you tell them to mock up a
 quarter and they won't get a darn thing. It'll be blurry, and it will be this
 way, and it'll shift around. 
 
 And you say, "All right now, let's just take a slab of silver." They 
 can do that. "Move that around. Take a slab of gold, slab of copper, move 
 those things around, shove thee around. Play chess with them. Get them going
 in circles, move them this way, move them that way. Blow them all up." 
 
 "No, I can't do that." 
 
 "Well, all right, stack those three over there and let's take a whole 
 bunch of theo now. And let its just take six bars of silver and six bars of
 gold and six bars of copper. Got then? Put them over there. Okay now let's
 take six more bars and six more bars and six more bars and put them over 
 there. You got that? 
 
 Okay. Now, let's have a big truck come up to the door and start 
 unloading bars of gold into the front room. Got that? Got that? Put them all
 in boxes and put them up there. Okay, now have them back down the alley, a
 whole fleet of trucks, back down the alley and start unloading gold into the
 back yard. Now get it all stacked up there. Now put a bunch of guards out 
 there." 
 
 "Well, I don't need any guar.. there's too much gold around here 
 already." 
 
 "Well okay, take.. take one.. take one tiny little pinpoint of gold 
 now. You got it? Now blow it up." You can sort of see the fellow look around
 
 -96- 
 

 cautiously to make sure he's got that back yard full and the front yard full
 and everything else. 
 
 "Well, we can dispense with this little piece." 
 
 And it'll go pow. He'll say humpf. He'll feel like.. he'll feel like
 just exactly possibly like Jim Fisk or whoever it was that used to walk down
 the front steps of the stock exchange when he'd had a good day and light his
 cigar with a hundred dollar bill. He feels just that.. that.. that way about
 it. 
 
 All right, you take that thimbleful of gold and you blow it up. You 
 take a bar of gold and you blow it up. And you take 2 bars of gold and you 
 blow it up. And all of a sudden, he's starting to get kinda unwilling. 
 
 So you have another fleet of trucks come up and.. and fill the other 
 back yard on both sides and you make the whole room full of gold and the 
 walls full of gold, and all the furniture full of gold, and you make, a.. 
 then stack the whole room full of silver. And he'll say, "The hell with it,"
 and he'll blow the room up. And he'll blow the back yard up. And he'll blow 
 the front yard up and so on. He's all set. 
 
 Sure, he's got.. he's trying to.. he's getting back toward his own 
 universe. That's all he's interested in. 
 
 Now, when you get.. when you get this process going, the next thing, 
 you take paper money. And you'll probably have a little less trouble with it.
 And you take some more paper money and some more paper money and you get 
 stacks of it. And the first thing you know, every time you get the paper 
 money down in front of the preclear, it'll start flickering right out of the
 billcase and just come up faster. 
 
 You have him mock up his body out there and mock up a pile of paper
 money. And it's just like a hurricane hits the stuff. It just goes swoosh. 
 You'll get him after a while so that he can stack up paper money all over the
 place. And the funny part of it is, he'll have to do a little bit of 
 orientation. He'll look into his pocketbook and it looks like what it is: 
 confetti. Worse than what it is.. worse than what it is, it'll look like 
 something a little bit worse than he was mocking up. But it has a buying 
 power and it has a lot of other things and he'll rehabilitate his perception
 and his viewpoint on it. 
 
 Now that's interesting to.. to notice though, that you.. you may have
 had an awful time with some preclear, just beating his head in just 
 consistently and continually trying to orient him so he's sensible and 
 rational on the subject of money. He's mad on the subject of money. The 
 process which I just gave you knocks it out. That's odd isn't it? 
 
 Is the MEST universe an illusion? Well, the handling of illusions 
 solves the confounded universe and solves the problems which are contained 
 where-in it, whereas if you continue to treat it as a reality, the problems 
 don't solve. Ah, is it an illusion? Now, this is not necessarily conclusive 
 proof, not necessarily at all. Uh.. it could be a very interesting sort of a
 proof if you went around shattering people's agreements, shattering their 
 reality. 
 
 If you were to walk down the street 10 feet off the ground out here 
 without walking on any pavement, but there you were walking along 10 feet off
 the ground and everybody could see you doing this, you'd have quite a crowd.
 Their reality would be very badly broken. 
 
 -97- 
 

 Well, the same way if you suddenly started extending your hand and 
 there was.. there was a ten dollar bill in your hand. You gave it to 
 somebody. And.. uh.. you come down the street and you see a panhandler there 
 and you just say, "Well, have a ten," and there's nothing in your hand, and 
 there's a ten. And he takes the ten and it says Abraham Lincoln or George 
 Washington or whoever it is that's on a ten.. Benjamin Franklin? No, that's 
 on hundreds. 
 
 So anyhow.. uh.. uh.. if you could do that and that money went into 
 circulation, that would be quite a test. That would be the test amongst 
 tests, wouldn't it? That would really be a test. Of course, you want to think 
 of the consequences of this. If you suddenly started doing that and that 
 money.. you had to be good enough to produce it, and that money would have to 
 have the proper treasury serial number on it and everything else and be 
 acceptable to the U.S. Government and all that. 
 
 You realize what the level of responsibility of that is? The level of 
 responsibility of the issuance of money to have the money acceptable is to be 
 the government of :hat country. And if you're willing to take on this level 
 of responsibility over here, you can do that one. But that's the test. It 
 would be the.. the final test to many. 
 
 Well, what do you know? It's not a test at all. That's not a test, 
 it's just.. is the way they've been testing things in science. They've said, 
 "All right, now so-and-so and so-and-so, now does it agree over here with the 
 physical universe? No. No. 
 
 But what's science studying? Science is studying the physical 
 universe. So, they're studying what tests in comparison with the physical 
 universe. You get that as a differentiation? Therefore, the physical universe 
 is the test of this which we're investigating because we're investigating the 
 physical universe. Now, don't.. don't get that snarled up with what we're 
 doing. We've got experience. 
 
 We want experience and we're testing experience. So if we're testing 
 experience, then let's test it by experience. And let's remember that 
 experience, just open up your mind a little bit and remember that experience 
 doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the physical universe. 
 Experience doesn't necessarily. 
 
 You see, that would be an awful arbitrary to enter into it. Say that 
 the only experience that anybody could have would have to do with the 
 physical universe. Well, you know immediately that that isn't true. Because 
 you know that a man is as alive as he has dreams. 
 
 Is the physical universe an illusion? You can test this one. If a man 
 loses his last dream, you've got a corpse on your hand. Don't kill a man with 
 bullets because you don't really kill him at all. We can test that and prove 
 that on an E-meter. 
 
 No, sir. Kill him by taking his dreams away one by one. Take his 
 goals and dreams. What's the commonest thing that you hear from people? "I 
 lost my illusions. I haven't any illusions any more.." They know what's wrong 
 with them. They've lost their illusions. They're telling you in just that 
 many words. That.. that was.. that was them. They lost themselves when they 
 lost their illusions. And a men is dead when the last of his dreams is dead 
 and that's about the long and short of it. 
 
 You go down here on skid row. Look at the bums. You just take that 
 line of bums and you'll find out that they don't have any dream anymore of 
 
 -98- 
 
 -

 having anything. There isn't anything they can be or anything except a bum.
 
 When you go down to the prison we'll find out that the criminal 
 uniformly has lost his self-respect. And when we ask him what his 
 self-respect is, and ask him rather closely, he says, "One day I found I 
 couldn't trust myself." 
 "How did you find that out?" 
 "I struck op mother." 
 
 If you put it on an E-meter, you'll find that just as answering up 
 along that line. 
 
 Or, "I found out that I betrayed a comrade. I did something. And 
 therefore I was no longer worth anything." 
 
 He didn't measure it in terms of how much MEST he had. The lousiest 
 criminal down here didn't measure it in the terms of how much NEST he had or
 was. He measured it in this degree: his.. I have discovered that there was 
 bad experience for which I was cause and I thereafter cannot BE anything 
 because I won't permit myself to be anything. And there's your criminal. 
 
 You want to start processing criminals any time, they're very easy to
 process. All you have to do is rehabilitate a man's belief in himself. It's
 so simple. He's lost it. 
 
 And what was that belief in self? It was the ability to garb self 
 with an acceptable illusion, an illusion which other people would accept. In
 the MEST universe that always has to be added on and is an arbitrary limiter;
 that which other people can accept. That is not true in one's own universe,
 it only has to be acceptable to himself. And that's.. HE KNOWS that, that's a
 level of certainty. Does he accept it himself? Yes. Or no. There's no 
 question mark: is it accepted by somebody else? 
 
 One of the big tricks in the MEST universe is, "Prove it or we don't
 accept it," or, "We'll agree to that if you'll agree to this." Trades in
 terms of illusion. And so you get a new universe going. 
 
 All right. The world around a child is a bright, bright world. A 
 child comes in with the idea that he is free. He has a new start, he's got a
 new chance. This time he will do something in the universe that is 
 spectacular. He will make a go of it and so on. He's got that new hope. 
 
 And that child goes downhill and becomes impossible to the degree 
 that he loses that hope. And the things are very bright to that child at 
 first. He can in other words put a perception there and perceive it with 
 great facility. The world is beautiful to him, he has a certain freedom, and
 so on. 
 
 And then they start working on him and they say, "Johnny, why do you
 overwork your imagination? You know very well that there's no battleship out
 there in the back yard." He knows there's no battleship out in the back yard.
 He's never made a mistake on it in his life. But he wants to put a battleship
 out in the back yard, let him put a battleship out in the back yard, instead
 of making this.. 
 
 Why.. why does this NEST universe and people who really get 
 MEST-ified.. Uh.. people that really get NEST-ified why, why are they so 
 insistent that we not imagine anything? Why? Because if a fellow really 
 
 -99- 

 started out along this line, they know, basically they know that the only way
 that they can be smashed to smithereens is to all of a sudden be presented 
 with an illusion which they have to accept. And that's a terrible danger. 
 
 Why Johnny's liable to come in the house and.. he's.. he's dangerous. 
 He keeps imagining he shoots tigers out there in the back yard. Now, what.. 
 what if he.. went out there in the back yard and he thought up this tiger and
 he brought the tiger in the house? That's actually a paramount thought. 
 
 Actually, you can.. you investigate momma and you'll say, "Now what 
 did he used to think up?" 
 
 "Oh, he used to think up these terrible things, these bad men and 
 everything else and these.. all.. all this and he used to think this up." 
 
 "We's.. what's.. what objection is there to that?" 
 
 "Oh, but they're terrible people!" She's gone right off along the 
 line. She knows exactly what might happen. 
 
 If Johnny were really hot, he could think up Jesse James and Jesse 
 James would come in there and there probably wouldn't be any silver left in 
 the house. And if the battleship Missouri got placed out in the back yard, by
 gosh! It'd be in the back yard. And it's so hard to grow flowers on turrets. 
 
 So, is it an illusion? Well, here we're on a communication level. 
 
 An illusion has been defined in the past as something that didn't 
 exist. Therefore, an illusion has no existence. All right, everybody kind of 
 understands that word illusion to mean something that doesn't exist, and when
 you say something has no existence, you mean something cannot be experienced.
 And I show you immediately that you can experience an illusion; that illusion
 exists. So existence can be an illusion, can't it? 
 
 Here it is. It can exist because it can be experienced, if we define 
 illusion to mean something which can be experienced. 
 
 You have to have something that can be experienced before somebody 
 can agree upon it. There has to be an experience there. So when we talk about
 experience, we're talking several cuts above the MEST universe. We're talking
 way up the line from the MEST universe, we're talking above the line of 
 energy, space, because an idea does not have to exist in space. You know 
 that. You don't have to have space to have an idea. 
 
 And when you make an illusion, that's the first requisite is to have 
 space. Well, space is an experience, so what one makes, one can experience. 
 What is made can be experienced. So you can make anything and it would exist 
 if it could be experienced. 
 
 Now, I'm not trying to just shuffle words around; I'm just trying to 
 get a better communication level on this thing. It is not fair to say, "All 
 right, yeah, I haven't any better word than illusion." I could call it a 
 whumjit and you'd probably.. well you'd probably come to a better agreement 
 on this. 
 
 When I say that wall is an illusion, I don't say that wall cannot be 
 experienced. That wall can be experienced, it obviously can be experienced. 
 And when I say it doesn't exist, I am only saying it does not necessarily, 
 arbitrarily, have to exist independent to experience, that's al1. It's 
 independent. 
 
 -100- 
 

 Now, it's a very funny thing about space and about things like that.
 People can make an agreement and that agreement just keeps on rolling. That
 doesn't say you don't have to feed that again. You don't have to feed more 
 agreement to it in order to perceive it some more. And if you really want to
 look something over, you want to go over and get it.. what you say, close. In
 other words you want to look it over real good. What's that mean? I want to
 experience it better. 
 
 So, if we just lay off any confusion about "Is this illusion?" or 
 "What do we mean by illusion?" we merely mean by illusion the technical 
 definition, that which one makes which can be experienced. 
 
 And what do we mean by reality? We mean that which is made and which
 is commonly experienced by agreement. That which is made or one or many make
 and can be commonly experienced. That we will define as reality just for our
 purposes. 
 
 And what's delusion? That which somebody else makes and tries to push
 off on us as an arbitrary necessary experience. Arbitrary, necessary 
 experience. 
 
 So.. uh.. what we're trying to do with processing and with this 
 slight dissertation on illusion here, what we're trying to do with processing
 is to give the preclear back a choice. We're giving hi back his power of 
 choice on whether or not he has to experience THIS. And we're giving him back
 that by one route only, and that's rehabilitating his power to create and 
 experience a universe. 
 
 If we can get him to create and experience a universe independently,
 the odd part of it is.. is he has greater choice on his ability to experience
 this: it isn't as bright as people tell him it has to be, it's as bright as
 he wants to make it. 
 
 An awful lot of people have an awful lot of trouble with this stuff,
 you know. People go around, they say, "The light's too bright, the dust is 
 blowing too hard.. uh.. I'm too warm, it's too cold, I'm uncomfortable, I'm
 too fat, I'm too thin, I'm this, I'm that, this, I.." They're complaining all
 the time about an arbitrary necessity to experience. 
 
 They're saying, "I don't like to experience that dust. I don't like 
 to have to experience, without any consultation with me, this, that, warmth,
 heat, cold. I.. I.. that's.. it's.. it's just these darn arbitrary 
 experiences uh.. that.. uh.. I just don't like it that's all. 
 
 Now, how do you get up their level of selection? By letting them run
 away from them? No, because to run away from something is to agree even
 further not only that it exists, but that it exists and is dangerous. 
 
 So, you see, that's an extension of agreement. 
 
 You know that you can frighten a person suddenly and they go into a 
 hypnotic trance? And if you were to frighten a person suddenly and to say 
 something real fast to them, you'd lay in a beautiful engram? You show them
 "this is dangerous"; they desert it quickly. You put right in that spot an 
 experience; when they try to move back over and take over that spot they just
 move right back into that. And that thing commands them thereafter. 
 
 That is the TRICK on making an agreement. You could say.. you can s..
 watch this in experience: people become that of which they are afraid. People
 create that which they fear. 
 
 -101- 

 It.. it may be that this.. here's a big lumbering crane and it goes 
 up and down the dock and loads ships. And one day it gets an operator who 
 says, "That crane is dangerous. It's liable to do this, it's liable to do 
 that, and you never know." And he tells somebody else that on the dock and,
 "This thing is dangerous. It's liable to do this, it's liable to do that, you
 just never know what that crane's going to do." And somebody else comes along
 and he says, "You know, that crane, that's just badly made and it's.. it's 
 dangerous, and it's liable to do this.." I don't know. 
 
 And we get a new operator and this new operator's told this as he 
 comes onto the thing. And he gets ahold of these controls and he says, "I'm
 handling something that's dangerous and it's not liable to do what I want it
 to do and I can't exert my will on it, really. And these controls might not
 control what they're supposed to control," and so he drops a load of steel on
 a bunch of longshoremen's heads. This follows. 
 
 He finally has manufactured something from which he can flee. He's 
 told that this exists that way and he will just break his neck to make it 
 something which justifies his fear of it. He's got to have it be something 
 dangerous if he's afraid of it. And the more dangerous it is the less 
 cowardly he is, if he's afraid of it. So he'll magnify that. He just juggles,
 in other words function by magnifying and subtracting experience. 
 
 Now, let's define experience. Experience is not necessarily space, 
 energy and objects. It's not necessarily space, energy, and objects. It just
 happens to appear that way from where we sit here in the MEST universe, 
 because the MEST universe is made of an agreement on space, energy and 
 objects. But at the second you think that that would be the end product.. 
 because an experience could pass as a postulate from a mind to a mind without
 the existence of space. So a postulate could be an experience, couldn't it..
 but you think.. you think of things.. postulates, as something that start 
 experience." 
 
 Now the funny part of it is that a postulate is a gradient scale 
 itself. It's not an absolute thing. When you start to undo postulates and you
 use the action cycle of postulate processing, you'll see what I mean. You 
 will be flabbergasted at the amount of MEST there is wrapped up in 
 postulates. And how thoroughly enmested a person normally is in making 
 postulates. He isn't making them free. He discovers for the first time that
 his decisional level is an enslaved thing to MEST when he starts to use an 
 action cycle of postulates. 
 
 Now, you could get a postulate up here to where it existed as just 
 pure experience that has nothing to do with action. So when we say experience
 again we're having a little communication difficulty. And experience normally
 has to do with action, doesn't it. Well, let's just orient that just a tiny
 bit better and say experience is merely a test of existence. An experience is
 a test or perception of existence. 
 
 You know they say this fellow can't work in this store very good 
 because he hasn't got any experience. Well, they mean he hasn't learned data
 connected with this store. That's what they mean. So the datum.. datum isn't
 really existing in time and space. It's been that way about stores for an 
 awful long time and it'll be that way about stores for an awful lot more 
 time. So you haven't spotted when you said "his experience," you haven't 
 spotted really data that exists in time. 
 
 Now.. ah.. you don't have to bat your head out with this. Let's 
 just.. I'm doing this mainly for clarification, so that we don't go adrift 
 anyplace on the thing. Because what we're doing is very simple. 
 
 -102- 

 A universe can be constructed of space, energy, and objects. Any 
 universe can exist. It can be perceived; therefore, it can exist. 
 
 This is the old-as-cards stuff going round and round, only they're on
 a slightly cruder level than we're operating. Because, so help me, we're 
 operating with positive proof. We can prove this experience. 
 
 How do you prove an experience? By experiencing it, of course. So 
 that's where we are. 
 
 Now, you can then make a universe of space, energy, and objects. 
 
 You could also make a universe which consisted of five dimensional 
 space, what we call.. might call uh.. projectivity and.. uh.. destructed. You
 could say, "After this.. uh.. object has been in existence for a certain 
 space of time, it automatically banishes.. uh.. therefore it has a delimiting
 factor and this.. this five dimensional space assists this because anything 
 which drifts into the warp areas of the five dimensional space becomes a 
 "destructed." So only that energy which is in the free areas at the time, 
 it's in IS. Now, that IS, so therefore we've got a universe that is going 
 "flick." 
 
 You've got a new universe there for that day and then it would go 
 click. You'd have a new universe there for that day. You see.. you can't fit
 five dimensional space together so there's have to be holes. And as it 
 shifted why this stuff would get into these holes, which of course, didn't 
 exist. So there couldn't be any space there by definition, but there could be
 space there.. 
 
 It.. it doesn't matter, I mean, this doesn't sound.. sounds.. sounds
 silly but you can do anything you want to. 
 
 One of the nicest tricks there is to get a preclear to mock up a 
 little piece of space here in front of him and then put a.. put something in
 it. Put a doll or something here in the middle of it. All right, you got a 
 doll in the middle of it. Now let's take the two extremities of that piece of
 space and let's give them a twist. Now let's twist them the other way. What 
 happens to the doll? 
 
 And the fellow says, "Well, the doll, humpf. The doll crinkles when I
 do that. Hummpf, that's interesting, yeah." 
 
 And you say, "All right, now collapse the space a little bit. Now 
 bring it out again. Got that? Now give it another crinkle so you know it's 
 yours. Okay, now just to be sure that it's your space, put a warp in it, 
 right here in the middle of it. Put a black line.. a black sheet, and there's
 dimension inside the black sheet but the sheet has no dimension in 
 relationship to your space." 
 
 Fellow says, "All right." 
 
 "Now the way you do this is you get this little doll walking along 
 now and everytime this little doll passes through this black space it does a
 time shift and appears on the other side as a bear." 
 
 Fellow says, "All right." 
 
 "Okay, now let's turn the bear around and have the bear walk back and
 pass through that black space and walk out the other side a doll. You got 
 that?" 
 
 -103- 

 "Yeah, that's very interesting." 
 Then he gets.. "Wonder what's in that black space?" 
 
 Well, of course there's nothing in that black space, but.. uh.. he's 
 beginning the cycle of automaticity on his piece of space. 
 
 Now he can make that piece of space exist. And if he had inhabitants 
 in his universe, this'd be the customary thing, is when you walk down the 
 walk.. you could walk down the walk in your bathrobe but when you hit the 
 sidewalk you were dressed for the office. And that happened because of a warp
 that is across everybody's sidewalk and he could sell them the warp. 
 "Now would you like to buy some warp space?" 
 I would say, "Sure, love to have some warp space." 
 
 "What kind of hat kind of warp space do you want though? Uh..
 what's.. to.. what's to happen? Is this the kind of warp space that you go in
 and come out of the other side of it fully dressed?" 
 
 "Well, we have that, but there's an improved kind that doesn't 
 necessarily work the opposite direction. So that when you walk home from the
 office, you don't necessarily get on the other side of it and appear in your
 bathrobe and walk up the steps. It doesn't undress you, it's just a dressing
 warp. And.. uh.. that's much superior, but that costs a little more." 
 
 All you'd have to do is just get everybody to agree that this was
 what's happening and this would become very usual. Be routine, that's all.
 You'd just have some warp space. 
 
 In the first space, there's no space there unless the person 
 postulates there's space there. Space is a viewpoint of dimension but we'll
 be covering that much more exhaustively. 
 
 But what's this warp? Now he knows he's got space and actually he 
 does know he's got space. He knows that he's got space as much as one can 
 know that he's got space when he can see the thing crinkle and he puts a warp
 in it. And if he can expand or contract this space on dimensions it's 
 obviously his space. He's expanding and contracting it, isn't he? Well, 
 that's the definition of space: dimension. If he can change the dimension of
 space, he obviously.. it belongs to him. That's all there is to it. 
 
 If you can make this wall move four feet closer to you and move back 
 again, you can own that space. 
 
 And it s a very odd thing, but a person's mock-ups have a tendency to 
 get much less perishable when they're in his own space. He'll notice this the
 first time with a considerable start. He'll.. he'll really.. he'll discover
 this quite accidentally. 
 
 He'll just be looking at his piece of space there and he'll say 
 suddenly - you've just made a piece of space and you just haven't told him
 any more about it and he.. "You know, it's brighter." 
 
 And you say, "Yeah, yeah, now let's blow it up." 
 
 He's been blowing up things very successfully but this is different. 
 But this is his. So you got.. gotta make a lot of them and have him blow up
 one. Make him make a lot of them and then make him make a little little one,
 and then blow the little one up. 
 
 -104- 

 And.. uh.. the handling of one's own space and one's own dimension is
 actually a rougher problem because one is at first much more serious about 
 it. Because one went down the tone scale of his own universe clear to the 
 bottom before he entered the MEST universe and now he's going down the MEST 
 universe clear to the bottom. And he's almost there. 
 
 The next universe out, I understand, is full of dragons and all named
 George. And.. uh.. they.. uh.. the place starts in with everybody being MEST,
 and.. that's an angel. And of course religion in this universe has nothing to
 do with MEST. They never pass a collection plate. Uh.. they,never say, they 
 never say, uh.. "Preserve your NEST," "Bury your HEST," "We will pray for 
 your MEST," or anything like that. And.. uh.. well anyway, this next new 
 universe is pretty rough. And it's pretty rough. So I'm going to say that if
 you can make the preclear go up tone scale on his own universe before he goes
 up tone scale on this universe, you've moved him back one universe already. 
 
 Now maybe there's a universe ahead of that. If there's a universe 
 ahead of that, though, why, boy, the amount of freedom must be so great in it
 that I wouldn't think it could policed. And if a universe couldn't be 
 policed, it isn't worth having because you gotta have cops. Everybody knows 
 that 'cause no ethic level could possibly exist that would prohibit the cops.
 No, you always gotta have police. 
 
 So if you had a universe that was so free and so ethical that cops
 couldn't exist in it, why, it'd naturally.. wouldn't be a universe you could
 own so you wouldn't want very much to do with that. 
 
 I mean.. uh.. this is circular logic but I mean it's good logical 
 stuff for this level of the tone scale of this society. 
 
 Uh.. now, what happens.. what happens if you, by mock-ups, suddenly 
 recover the ability to move this wall four feet it closer to you and feel it?
 
 (END OF TAPE) 
 
 -105- 
